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Regular Contributor
jlqsczw_2007
Posts: 97
Registered: ‎06-28-2008
0

When will a true DSP core or GPU core be embeded in FPGA ?

[ Edited ]

Although Xilinx  FPGA has DSP48 resources, they are not ,in the full sense ,a ture DSP core.

 

When will a true DSP core by TI or GPU core by Nvidia be embeded in FPGA ?

 

I mean ,just like ARM in Zynq, developers can write C codes to run on the DSP or GPU processors in FPGA.

 

It will be fantastic.

 

Xilinx Employee
bwiec
Posts: 1,005
Registered: ‎08-02-2011
0

Re: When will a truly DSP core or GPU core be embeded in FPGA ?

In my mind, that's part of the beauty of SOFT processors. You can put whatever you want in the fabric. If you need a MAC engine, you can just write it in code. If you need a full FIR or FFT co-processor, easy, just plop an IP core in the fabric. If you need multiple busses streaming data, several DMA engines, Video IP, floating point........ well you get the picture. All do-able through XPS with just a microblaze. And obviously, zynq extends that quite a bit.

 

 

www.xilinx.com
Xilinx Employee
austin
Posts: 3,682
Registered: ‎02-27-2008
0

Re: When will a truly DSP core or GPU core be embeded in FPGA ?

j,

 

How many will you buy?

 

It is all about the market.  Going head to head with Freescale, TI, Analog Devices, is not a business I want to be in (commodity GM is 35 to 45%)..

 

Yes, programming in c is easier.  That is why we bought AutoESL.

 

Will we harden more stuff?  Of course.  But there has to be a need, and a need that is represented by new markets, and revenue.  We have been at this (FPGA business) for 28 years, and it isn't an easy business to be in.  Just look at all the failures.  Generally hardening functionality has been a bad idea.  Zynq is different, as he hardened something (A9 Cortex) this is programmable.  The A9 can be used as a DSP, so it a very real sense, we already have done what you asked.

 

 

Austin Lesea
Principal Engineer
Xilinx San Jose
Regular Contributor
juergenatduerr
Posts: 88
Registered: ‎02-09-2012

Re: When will a truly DSP core or GPU core be embeded in FPGA ?

[ Edited ]

A softcore is always a waste of silicon and only makes sence for certain applications, because it is a very expensive silicon.  As soon as it comes to high performance C-applications, an external CPU quickly becomes much cheaper and requires less power too.

 

On the other hand hard cores exceed some limits of external wiring, but are much more expensive again, presented within an FPGA. The question is, if there is a market large enough for high performant DSP-apps, requiring these advantages. Often, a combination of a DSP-farm an some FPGAs does best - also in terms of debugging and availability of dev tools. Last but not least, DSP-Chips became very cheap nowadays.

 

GPU-element like functions do not realy make sense, if they replace FPGA-silicon, because they are not very much more versatile but though extreemly expensive in comparison. I'd prefer the more rudimentary DSP-elements. FPGAs containing GPU-aspects would be sold rarely and had a high price. Also the tasks typically placed in GPU-platforms are less effective than in FPGA, because the silicon in an FPGA is truely parallel, where the GPU-Chip-HW is not. GPU solutions are only much cheaper, but: for a certain reason: If one want's to make use of the GPU-like power and likes to take advantage of the low costs, this only works for chips with very very high lot numbers, so it's much better to order the GPU chips , add some to the FPGA-array and feed them in parallel. They have very effective RAM-controllers nowadays offering much parallel access.

 

Some friends of mine, do research on such plattforms, they e.g. have a board with 2 Virtex6 + 4 NIVIDA-Chips offering at least twice the IO-power (pipelined) and nearly three times the calculation power (FLOPS) than one would have, if one spent the same money on either only FPGAs or only GPU-Chips when focussing apps having typical balanced demands of signal processing.

 

Specialized Chips are allways the number one choice, if available - especially when it comes to complex behaviour.

FPGAs have their adavantage at strong pipelined processing, IO-based processing and in systems where requirements lead to very heterogenous structures, with a little demand on C-support (complex event handling). And they are very easily changeable, if this is required.

 

However, I do expect the DSP-elements in FPGAs becoming more complex in the future anyway. A first step would be 33x33 MUL, overcoming most DSP's data bus widths.

 

 

 

Super Contributor
vlavruhin
Posts: 195
Registered: ‎12-08-2010
0

Re: When will a true DSP core or GPU core be embeded in FPGA ?

Personally, I find the idea of combining soft microblaze microprocessor and semi-soft, semi-hard DSP resources (as distributed logic or DSP48 slices, that allows to design custom peripheral core) very exciting. And it works.

Though I agree that complex and sophisticated algorithms are not easy to implement in HDL or System Generator model. But now Xilinx unveils Vivado Design Suite...

Best Regards,
Vitaly.
Regular Contributor
juergenatduerr
Posts: 88
Registered: ‎02-09-2012
0

Re: When will a true DSP core or GPU core be embedded in FPGA ?

> But now Xilinx unveils Vivado Design Suite...

Will there be more support for code generation from algos?

I Step through the V's announcement page but did not find regarding that so far..

 

[hardware]

what could be an improvement, were more connections to RAMs to access RAM-tables e.g.. from 4-8 ports simultaneously. This would improve the parallel access and speed of filters making use of coefficients over several time layers. DFT and als DDS could be much quicker. For 8 times overlayed DFT-algorithms I currently e.g. need 4 RAMs which hold copies of the data.

 

What would be a great help, was an embedded reciproc element which can calculate  y = 1 / x whithin 10 ns.

The quickest replacement for that currectly seems to be a logic core divider with 50MHz taking away quite a number of cells. Best was a 1/32 Bit precise 1/n which can be followed by MUL in order to perform any A/B operation in 1 cycle for medium speedy apps. The same could be implemented for root and logarithm.

 

A very nice DSP element IMO was a wide input adder at 32 Bit with 4,8 or 16 ports simplifying summarization during FIR-Filtering. it could also speed up FFT-calculations.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Super Contributor
vlavruhin
Posts: 195
Registered: ‎12-08-2010
0

Re: When will a true DSP core or GPU core be embedded in FPGA ?


> But now Xilinx unveils Vivado Design Suite...

Will there be more support for code generation from algos?

I Step through the V's announcement page but did not find regarding that so far..


Yes, there is Vivado High-Level Synthesis:

http://www.xilinx.com/products/design-tools/vivado/integration/esl-design/hls/index.htm

www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSPugLS1V3U

 

Best Regards,
Vitaly.
Newbie
esjliu@gmail.com
Posts: 1
Registered: ‎06-10-2012
0

Re: When will a truly DSP core or GPU core be embeded in FPGA ?

dear Austin:

 my friend and I are  working on a project, a new graphics algorithm. so far simulation shows better performance than some provailing GPU and want to test it in hardware, FPGA should be the best choice. I am not familiar with FPGA, roughly I need to setup such a developing environment (FPGA)  which can do basic GPU, and the critical point is I can input my new algorithm  by C, or some other languages.

please give me some advice. many thx!

regards

senjin

Regular Contributor
juergenatduerr
Posts: 88
Registered: ‎02-09-2012
0

Re: When will a truly DSP core or GPU core be embeded in FPGA ?

maybe a new thread should be better to ask that ...