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Re: decoupling capacitor selection and placement
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03-20-2012 07:06 AM
differance between 3 and 6 ?
different processes, differnet pin out / construction
different IO voltages and drivers.
all adds up to, an easier to drive FPGA,
but as always, we increase what we want the fpga to do,
so it all comes around,
just follow the rules, and all should be well,
Re: decoupling capacitor selection and placement
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03-20-2012 08:05 PM
Gabor,
Thanks for reply. I noticed spartan 6 integrated some decoupling caps in package. I tried to find how much value of those substrate capacitor added to each power pin in the package of spartan 6, but failed. Is Xilinx able to provide this kind of info?
Re: decoupling capacitor selection and placement
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03-20-2012 08:56 PM
I noticed spartan 6 integrated some decoupling caps in package. I tried to find how much value of those substrate capacitor added to each power pin in the package of spartan 6, but failed.
I had read this was true for Virtex-6 packages (integrated decoupling caps), but didn't realise this was practiced with Spartan-6 devices as well.
-- Bob Elkind
README for newbies is here: http://forums.xilinx.com/t5/New-Users-Forum/README-first-Help-for-new-users/td-p/219369
Summary:
1. Read the manual or user guide. Have you read the manual? Can you find the manual?
2. Search the forums (and search the web) for similar topics.
3. Do not post the same question on multiple forums.
4. Do not post a new topic or question on someone else's thread, start a new thread!
5. Students: Copying code is not the same as learning to design.
6 "It does not work" is not a question which can be answered. Provide useful details (with webpage, datasheet links, please).
7. You are not charged extra fees for comments in your code.
8. I am not paid for forum posts. If I write a good post, then I have been good for nothing.
Re: decoupling capacitor selection and placement
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03-20-2012 09:18 PM
Virtex 6 share the same architeture with spartan 6, however, there is no such info specify the value of the substrate decoupling caps on each power pins, even for Virtex 6. I can only find something with Virtex 5. So, I wonder if Xilinx can give a clue?
Re: decoupling capacitor selection and placement
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03-20-2012 09:52 PM
Virtex 6 share the same architeture with spartan 6
For packaging? No.
Spartan-6 uses low-cost packages with wire-bonded pads, Virtex-6 uses flip-chip packages. (Ref: page 1 of DS150 and DS160). Virtex-6 packages incorporate substrate decoupling caps (UG373 v1.2 page 23), Spartan-6 packages do not.
As a consequence, the board decoupling supply caps recommendations for Spartan-6 and Virtex-6 are very different from one another.
-- Bob Elkind
README for newbies is here: http://forums.xilinx.com/t5/New-Users-Forum/README-first-Help-for-new-users/td-p/219369
Summary:
1. Read the manual or user guide. Have you read the manual? Can you find the manual?
2. Search the forums (and search the web) for similar topics.
3. Do not post the same question on multiple forums.
4. Do not post a new topic or question on someone else's thread, start a new thread!
5. Students: Copying code is not the same as learning to design.
6 "It does not work" is not a question which can be answered. Provide useful details (with webpage, datasheet links, please).
7. You are not charged extra fees for comments in your code.
8. I am not paid for forum posts. If I write a good post, then I have been good for nothing.
Re: decoupling capacitor selection and placement
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03-21-2012 05:22 PM
ok, thanks.
Re: decoupling capacitor selection and placement
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06-12-2012 01:13 PM
Hello,
I`m former Altera user and long-time Xilinx user.
I agree and disagree too :)
Right solution for capacitor selection - using PDN calculation and/or sumulation.
See this link for example
http://www.altera.com/technology/signal/power-dist
Selection of caps not only searching cheap parts at Digi.
Good PDN design provide low power plane impedanse at given frequency band.
Unfortunatelly Xilinx not provide any PDN calculators :(
Will use Altera tools for Xilinx design :)
-- Regards, Victor
Re: decoupling capacitor selection and placement
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06-12-2012 02:31 PM
Right solution for capacitor selection - using PDN calculation and/or simulation.
Understanding the underlying concepts, theory, and practical details is very useful. On the other hand, if all the theory and science can be summarised in what some people call "rules of thumb", this makes life simpler for many designers.
For example:
When you drive your auto to the filling station, do you check the compression of your engine, the atmospheric pressure, the ambient humidity and temperature, and the ignition timing of your auto's spark generator before selecting which octane rating of petrol to purchase? Or do you simply accept the manufacturer's recommendation for octane rating 87, as a reasonable and practical summation of expert analysis and calculation which has been done on your behalf?
The Xilinx board design recommendations for decoupling caps are intended to be a reasonable and practical summation of expert analysis and calculation. Such summations are possible and practical because the problem of decoupling capacitor selection isn't all that difficult. The advent of high-quality MLCC surface mount capacitors, replacing leaded ceramic and aluminum capacitors, has greatly simplified the task of providing a competent solution.
See this link for example
The linked white paper is excellent. The attention given to layout and board stack-up considerations is very helpful.
Selection of caps not only searching cheap parts at Digi.
You have over-simplified, Victor. Read my comments again. X5R capacitors are not the cheapest parts -- they are the high-quality fine-tolerance stable parts. The cheapest X5R caps (from a reputable distributor and manufacturer) are not the cheapest caps.
Good PDN design provide low power plane impedanse at given frequency band.
Unfortunatelly Xilinx not provide any PDN calculators :(
Providing a reliable and cost-effective solution -- for capacitor selection -- is not that difficult, and the guidance provided by Xilinx is in the form of easy-to-follow instructions. I have my own "rule of thumb" practice which is also reliable and cost-effective. My approach is not the only correct one, and the success of my approach does not mean that the Xilinx recommendations are flawed -- they are not.
One of the purposes of this thread is to reduce level of fear, uncertainty, doubt, and anxiety of FPGA/board designers where capacitor selection and layout decisions must be made.
It is one thing to say 'here is a white paper on the underlying principles and considerations, in case you are interested'.
It is quite another matter to say (or imply) 'nothing you have read from these folks is safe and reliable, the only proper guidance is from this PDN calculator'. This would be both untrue and counter-productive.
-- Bob Elkind
README for newbies is here: http://forums.xilinx.com/t5/New-Users-Forum/README-first-Help-for-new-users/td-p/219369
Summary:
1. Read the manual or user guide. Have you read the manual? Can you find the manual?
2. Search the forums (and search the web) for similar topics.
3. Do not post the same question on multiple forums.
4. Do not post a new topic or question on someone else's thread, start a new thread!
5. Students: Copying code is not the same as learning to design.
6 "It does not work" is not a question which can be answered. Provide useful details (with webpage, datasheet links, please).
7. You are not charged extra fees for comments in your code.
8. I am not paid for forum posts. If I write a good post, then I have been good for nothing.
Re: decoupling capacitor selection and placement
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06-12-2012 10:33 PM
Hello,
Worst case scenario
Basically FPGA is not alone on PCB.
I can have 20 packages from 5 vendors.
Each vendors recommend use different capacitors for chips decoupling.
And component management department kill me if I will use 20 different cap. values.
---
Fable summary.
1) You shoud know PDN design principles
2) You can follow or not follow chip vendors recommendation at own risk in both cases
3) You can use PDN design and propose reading decoupling recommendation to grandmother. :)
-- Best Regards (and good decoupling :) )
Victor
Re: decoupling capacitor selection and placement
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06-13-2012 06:04 AM
Fable summary.
1) You shoud know PDN design principles
agreed!
2) You can follow or not follow chip vendors recommendation at own risk in both cases
True, but risk is near zero if you follow point 1)
3) You can use PDN design and propose reading decoupling recommendation to grandmother. :)
Or use your own noodle to place components that you are familiar with and know work.
Basically FPGA is not alone on PCB.
I can have 20 packages from 5 vendors.
Each vendors recommend use different capacitors for chips decoupling.
No one says you have to use the values proposed by vendors, just like you don't have to
copy the eval board schematics. They are given as a starting point because they have
been shown to work on the eval board.
And component management department kill me if I will use 20 different cap. values.
Maybe it's time to fire the "component management department" and use their salary
to allow better component selection on your next design. Either that or hire some
"component managers" who have the skill to do your board decoupling selection ...
-- Gabor











