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Explorer
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Registered: ‎10-07-2016

SDK banned from Vivado 2019.2 ???

Dear Xilinx community,

does anybody know the reason why Xilinx has banned the SDK from Vivado 2019.2 ?

To be honest I was shocked, as I read this the first time.

It looks like you have to use Vitis now, although it is brand and does not run very stable under windows. Some functionality is even not supported under Windows...

Why doesn't Xilinx support both paltforms in parallel for a certain time, to make a smoother transition from SDK to Vitis?

It looks like Xilinx has not learned its lessons from the introduction of Vivado, which was also a mess...

Kind regards

Steffen

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Registered: ‎11-09-2015

Re: SDK banned from Vivado 2019.2 ???

HI @stgateizo 


@stgateizo wrote:

Dear Xilinx community,

does anybody know the reason why Xilinx has banned the SDK from Vivado 2019.2 ?

To be honest I was shocked, as I read this the first time.

[Florent] - This is the choice that was made, no transition period between SDK and Vitis

It looks like you have to use Vitis now, although it is brand and does not run very stable under windows. Some functionality is even not supported under Windows...

[Florent] - The features which were previously supported under windows should still be supported (like everything you could do with SDK). The accelaration flow is not but SDAccel was also not available under SDK

Why doesn't Xilinx support both paltforms in parallel for a certain time, to make a smoother transition from SDK to Vitis?

It looks like Xilinx has not learned its lessons from the introduction of Vivado, which was also a mess...

Kind regards

Steffen


If you have any issue with Vitis, just ask for support. But with SDK flow, there shoudln't be much change.

Regards


Florent
Product Application Engineer - Xilinx Technical Support EMEA
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Registered: ‎10-07-2016

Re: SDK banned from Vivado 2019.2 ???

Hello Florent,

from my point of view this is the wrong decission. I used vitis two times now to make a simple "hello world" test design with Microblaze, during this time Vitis crashed several times. it is unusable in the current version, but I need to go on with the Vviado 2019.2 since some bugs seems to be fixed in DP/HDMI Rx Subsystem...

Furthter I didn't found a detailed documentation for Vitis.

Sorry, but I can not understand this decissions...

Kind regards

Steffen

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Teacher
Teacher
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Registered: ‎07-09-2009

Re: SDK banned from Vivado 2019.2 ???

It was a surprise to me,
but Xilinx have a history of this :

a) drooping CPLD support
b) dropping VHDL support
c) dropping ISE support
d) dropping PowerPC
e) dropping PLB bus support

All the above have cost my clients money over the decades, and me egg on face

<== If this was helpful, please feel free to give Kudos, and close if it answers your question ==>
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Registered: ‎11-09-2015

Re: SDK banned from Vivado 2019.2 ???

HI @stgateizo and @drjohnsmith 

I will not comment on the choice not to have a transition period. I didn't make the decision.

Just talking from support point of view which is my team. We will help you to move forward if you have issue.

The good point with Vitis is that you are not forced to use the GUI. Thus the standard flow is command line/script. So for "SDK flow" you can just use the make file provided and use gcc on your side.

Regards


Florent
Product Application Engineer - Xilinx Technical Support EMEA
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Registered: ‎10-07-2016

Re: SDK banned from Vivado 2019.2 ???

Hello Forent,

please note, that vivado 2019.2 does no longer generate a hdf file. It changed to xsa.  I assume it is not only the name extension which has changed?

Kind regard

Steffen

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Registered: ‎11-09-2015

Re: SDK banned from Vivado 2019.2 ???

Hi @stgateizo 

Yes this is a different file


Florent
Product Application Engineer - Xilinx Technical Support EMEA
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Registered: ‎10-07-2016

Re: SDK banned from Vivado 2019.2 ???

Hi Florent,

please note that I do not attack you personally. I always appreciated your contribution to help us. I also know that the decission was not made by you. But it would be good if you could forward my feedback to the decission makers, although I know that Xilinx moved his focus to different customers and market areas in the last years.

Best regards

Steffen

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Registered: ‎11-09-2015

Re: SDK banned from Vivado 2019.2 ???

HI @stgateizo 

Please ask your FAE to send your feedback to marketing. It will have more weight than if it comes from me.

Regards


Florent
Product Application Engineer - Xilinx Technical Support EMEA
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Teacher
Teacher
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Registered: ‎07-09-2009

Re: SDK banned from Vivado 2019.2 ???

As far as I understand , FAEs are only for large customers,
and at that are a much rarefied thing now days,

Does that mean Xilinx only listen to FAEs who support these larger companies , not the bulk of the users who use the forums,

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Registered: ‎07-23-2019

Re: SDK banned from Vivado 2019.2 ???

 

So is that Vitis going to replace SDK? well, as with ISE, that one has to stick to release 14, one can just keep 2019.1 and SDK. I'm currently using it. some people like "getting the latest" (with or without knowing all the uncertainty that comes with it). I prefer polished and trustable things, I don't have much time to waste in sorting out what doesn't work. I'm not a beta tester. 

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Explorer
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Registered: ‎10-05-2010

Re: SDK banned from Vivado 2019.2 ???

I have a topic going in the Vitis forum because I get the error that the Vitis launch failed. The solution seems pretty simple, I didn't install Vitis. The installer has a radio button to choose between Vitis and Vivado. Choosing Vitis also loads Vivado, but choosing Vivado doesn't load Vitis. At least that's what I think, I haven't completed the two hour download yet. I don't know why the people in charge of the download just assumed that I would know immediately that Vitis would be the correct selection, since I've been using SDK for the past 6 or 7 years, and that loads automatically, and I've never heard of Vitis. Guess I was supposed to read all the press releases. 

Another annoyance is that in Vivado 2019.1, we launch SDK from File -> Launch SDK, but in Vivado 2019.2, I had to search through the menus to find Tools -> Launch Vitis. And don't count on the SDK Migration chapter of UG1400 to give away the secret. Step 1 is 'Launch the Vitis software platform'.

 

---

Joe Samson

 

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Explorer
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Registered: ‎10-07-2016

Re: SDK banned from Vivado 2019.2 ???

Hello archangel-lightworks,

yes, Vitis is replacing SDK. There is no transition phase. You have to use Vitis from Vivado 2019.2 on.

And yes, you are the beta tester for Xilinx.

By the way I have already informed my FAE...

Kind regards

Steffen

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Registered: ‎11-09-2015

Re: SDK banned from Vivado 2019.2 ???

Hi @drjohnsmith 

Xilinx FAEs are only for large customers. Distributors have FAEs as well for smaller accounts.


Florent
Product Application Engineer - Xilinx Technical Support EMEA
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Teacher
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Registered: ‎07-09-2009

Re: SDK banned from Vivado 2019.2 ???

Are you certain that Digikey, mouser etc have an FAE for Xilinx parts
I purchase regularly from your distributes, as many others do,
when I phone up for support, no FAE, best they do is point us to the forums,

Just highlighting the difference between the big guys who only have a few projects who I also work for, and the smaller guys in terms of real information you might be getting.

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Registered: ‎07-23-2019

Re: SDK banned from Vivado 2019.2 ???

 

No, @stgateizo , I'm not a beta tester. I did let people pull their hairs with Windows 7 before moving to it. Same with 10. I even skipped 8. Same with any other software. First impatient users are the less productive and those who fall into bugs, errors, etc. that cost money to you, make loose money, patience and faith to your customer and eventually damage one's reputation and credit... 

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Teacher
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Registered: ‎07-09-2009

Re: SDK banned from Vivado 2019.2 ???

We have been given no option but to change, too many bugs in 2019.1
and vitis has not had anywhere as near as much testing as its no going to get
we users are by definition testing the software for Xilinx,

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Registered: ‎11-03-2019

Re: SDK banned from Vivado 2019.2 ???

So I'm trying to understand this. 2019.2 has no sdk, instead we have to use vitis. But when I add vitis I can no longer use the free webpack version? So from an academic perspective as a professor, I have no way to use the webpack version of 2019.2 for my students working with zynq?

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Registered: ‎07-23-2019

Re: SDK banned from Vivado 2019.2 ???

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Registered: ‎11-09-2015

Re: SDK banned from Vivado 2019.2 ???

Hi engr.eric@gmail.com 

Not sure what you are saying here. Vitis is free.


Florent
Product Application Engineer - Xilinx Technical Support EMEA
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Re: SDK banned from Vivado 2019.2 ???


@drjohnsmith wrote:
We have been given no option but to change, too many bugs in 2019.1
and vitis has not had anywhere as near as much testing as its no going to get
we users are by definition testing the software for Xilinx,


Hi @drjohnsmith 

At least from the technical support side, we are testing Vitis since 2019.1 was released (but some where probably testing it before). Some early customers were testing it at well. To try to have the tool as stable as possible. So when the tool is released, it has been tested.

But then if you consider the number of users that Xilinx has, it would make years to think about every single combination that a customer can use. And if you take years to release a SW then it is already out of date when it is released

I agree that a transition period would give the choice to user. But at some point there would still be some complaint because people don't like to change. Just think about vivado. There was a transition period between ISE and Vivado but some people were still reluctant to change when the ISE support was stopped.

I understand your frustration but you should test it first. It is no because some customer faced issues that you will face issues too. And if you face issue, you can always report them and we will try to have them fixed.


Florent
Product Application Engineer - Xilinx Technical Support EMEA
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Registered: ‎10-07-2016

Re: SDK banned from Vivado 2019.2 ???

Hello Florent,

please see my comments below:

[Florent] At least from the technical support side, we are testing Vitis since 2019.1 was released (but some where probably testing it before). Some early customers were testing it at well. To try to have the tool as stable as possible. So when the tool is released, it has been tested.

[Steffen] If Vitis was tested such intensively as you said why crashed Vitis several times, when I tried it the first time, with a simple "Hello World" Microblaze design? I think this is the reason why customers feel like a beta testers for Xilinx.

[Florent] But then if you consider the number of users that Xilinx has, it would make years to think about every single combination that a customer can use. And if you take years to release a SW then it is already out of date when it is released.

[Steffen] I agree to this comment. It is impoosible to fix everything upfront. But the experience I made the last 15 years with Xilinx was always the same. Don't use new Tools. Wait one or two years before you can use them. Compared to other SW-Tools, I would say that the quality of the tools does even not achieve beta status. Please note that we cannot spent most of our time to open service requests. This costs our company a lot of time and money. In the worst case it can even cost you your job!

[Florent] I agree that a transition period would give the choice to user. But at some point there would still be some complaint because people don't like to change. Just think about vivado. There was a transition period between ISE and Vivado but some people were still reluctant to change when the ISE support was stopped.

[Steffen] I transition periode is not nice to have, it is necessary from my point of view !

[Florent] I understand your frustration but you should test it first. It is no because some customer faced issues that you will face issues too. And if you face issue, you can always report them and we will try to have them fixed.

[Steffen] Well I have tested Vitis, and I run into problems as I said before. I'm even not sure if I made everthing correct, since there is no detailed documentation available. And no, I wil not create any service requests for Vitis. I have no time to do it this time. I will draw my consequences, and will stay on 2019.1 until the problems are gone.

I think everything is said now. Now its up to Xilinx to react.

Kind regards

Steffen

 

 

 

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Teacher
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Re: SDK banned from Vivado 2019.2 ???

@florwentw

ISE support you mention, Problem was that a lot of devices, like the complete PLD range have been dropped over night, stranding people that I work for,

You say it would take years to test every single combination that customers can use I agree, probably man decades of work needed, And yet you say you have done limited user testing since 2019,1 release 3 odd months back. Sounds like us users have done more resting for you since it was released than than before release.

Thank you for getting back to us all,
that is the sign of a good engineer.

As for trying a new infrastructure,
Te big companies I work for have said words to effect of , well wait and see if its a fad or not, and for the bugs to be blown out of it
The secure companies I work for are worried by it cause its open source, !! couner intuative I know, hey love linux, but there you go,

And the small companies of only 5 or 6 engineers, are concerned by the step change in the computers they seem to need and the lost man months of work scare their boss's .

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Registered: ‎10-09-2019

Re: SDK banned from Vivado 2019.2 ???

This is an interesting topic that says a lot about the evolution of the FPGA technology and the evolution of company management - in particular who makes the decisions at companies. 

1)   The problem asserted here is not new.   For example, when Windows began to evolve, management assessed the cost of the transitioning to later versions of Windows and management responded by making Windows 7 Professional version include an XP mode.     Due to the fact that Windows was the only game in town later versions of Windows did not need to include a XP mode.     Management at Xilinx must believe they are the only game in town and can afford to operate in this manner.   We will see how the market reacts to this.    

2)  It appears that the people making the decisions at Xilinx are more interested in immediate capital acquistion.    However, it is engineers and educators who usually make the decisions on which products to purchase.   I know educators will not be pleased with this decision.     Education is usually very slow in adapting to technological change.   Individual hobbiests are even slower to adapt to changes of this type.    

It is my belief that upper level management made a mistake in not assessing the cost of transitioning.    I know this, if Xilinx had any real market competition, the company would be in free fall right now.      

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Re: SDK banned from Vivado 2019.2 ???


@goer001 wrote:

[...]  Education is usually very slow in adapting to technological change.   Individual hobbiests are even slower to adapt to changes of this type.    

It is my belief that upper level management made a mistake in not assessing the cost of transitioning.    I know this, if Xilinx had any real market competition, the company would be in free fall right now.      


This is the exact opposite. This is when you have real market competition that you have to adapt quickly. Else you cannot catch back on your competition or your competition catch you back. Up to now, this seems to be working for Xilinx as it is ahead of its competition and that is the way to stay

Education and hobbiest are not the one who are bringing the money. And any company needs money to stay competitive


Florent
Product Application Engineer - Xilinx Technical Support EMEA
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Re: SDK banned from Vivado 2019.2 ???

When you wrote this:

"Education and hobbiest are not the one who are bringing the money. And any company needs money to stay competitive"

This is where Xilinx management has made its big mistake.    Studies have been done on the people who purchase microcontrollers/microprocessor and they have found that the purchasing of these products correlates directly to what the individual student was taught in college.    When the students grew up and became managers they purchased products from these same companies.    People, in general, do not like to change from their original platform because they know a product to be stable.    

Right now, I see this as a battle between FPGA companies who are all making big mistakes.   I purchased  a kit from one of  your competitors and they offered free software.  Later on, I found out that my software license expired.    I was angry as hell because of all the time I put in learning their system.    My time learning their system was a complete waste of time.   I learned the hard way.  When I purchased your product I first had a conversation with the sales people about whether my software license would expire.   When I heard that my Vivado and SDK license would never expire, the purchase was made.  

Your company is way ahead of its competitors because education purchases your product.    If education becomes disenchanted they may turn to a lower cost competitor and your lead will decrease.

The quality of technical support with regard to the company products has an extreme effect upon the general population.  For example, HP/Agilent/Keysight's technical support for their network analyzers that it is almost universal raved about by all RF technicians.    The guy who is running technical support over there for network analyzers is a most excellent Professor name, Mr. Dunsmore.   He will give you technical support for obsolete products from back in the day.    The RF techs in the industry all rave about him.   He is really a credit to his company.  

It is my understanding that the guy who invented/developed the FPGA owns Xilinx.  However, I can't recall his name and if you ask anyone in the general populous who he is, I bet most people can't name him ( I can't name him but I know he is a genius).

Engineers/Professors can distinguish themselves by being receptive to the general public, this includes professors and hobbyists.     

 

 

 

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Observer
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Registered: ‎10-07-2019

Re: SDK banned from Vivado 2019.2 ???

Weird, I just download the full 2019.2 install, installed the "WebPACK", and Vitis doesn't show up.

Vivado2019_2.png

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Explorer
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Registered: ‎10-07-2016

Re: SDK banned from Vivado 2019.2 ???

Hello pkinzer,

this does not help you, since the interface between vivado and sdk has changed in vivado 2019.2. You cannot use vivado 2019.2 with SDK anymore.

Further you need also the drivers for the IP-cores. When you use Vivado2019.2 then you also need a SDK20191.2 which brings the driver files for the IP-cores which have changed in Vivdao2019.2....

Regards

Steffen

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Re: SDK banned from Vivado 2019.2 ???

@florentw 

As a pure-S/W individual, I realy appreciated the fact Xilinx was making SDK available in a standalone download. A few GB to download and no added clutter on my disk drive.

I quickly tried to download Vitis.... Gosh !

100 GB is a bit excessive for my simple needs: GNU toolchain, Eclipse, and JTAG.

I must have on hand all versions in case I have to duplicate customer issues - they are not always using the latest version.

Other than getting 2 or 3 TB drives, do you have a more practical alternative ?

 

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Registered: ‎11-07-2019

Re: SDK banned from Vivado 2019.2 ???

When Xilinx moved from ISE to Vivado, ISE was still supported few years for Old componnents.

You Xilinx, should support SDK with your "OLD" componnents and move to VITIS just with new chips release.

We are in the middle of the Project using MPSOC, we have no time to change the platform now.

we made full project tree compilation with the "hdf" file, we can't use other methos now,

After all , Your "hdf" and "xsa" is just "zip" file..

We can move to VITIS in the future if we will decide to move to new chips like Vesal etc...

Please bring back the SDK as it was !!!!